Fiocruz Hub interviews Dr. Denise Oliveira
Dr. Denise Oliveira is the coordinator of the Coordinator of the Brazilian Observatory of Eating Habits (OBHA).
She spoke with the Fiocruz Hub journalist, Hellowa Correa, about the pandemics and its impact on food safety in Brazil, as well as the work of the Observatory.
Hub: The Food, Nutrition, and Culture Program, which is under your coordination, have an intersectional approach to the food issue dealing with various communities such as indigenous, maroons, rural, and urban. You also have international partnerships with Mozambique, France, Spain, and Antuerpia. Can we say that they are all in the same boat? How do you analyze these differences?
Professor Denise Oliveira: I think that we should carefully notice that there is a common boat which is the COVID-19 pandemic. It is a global event. We have been in touch with many people, we have been participating in a lot of activities. The last issue of the Food and Culture of the Americas magazine brought these aspects. We couldn’t disagree that we face some similarities. I think that, from the nutritional point of view, we will verify that the issue of territory has its distinctions. If you think about the European territory, the Latin American, the North American, and the Central American one, we can notice that there are differences. But there is a very significant question. How are we, as human beings, integrating ourselves to handle this pandemic? It seems that there is something pretty common, right? First of all, the unusual fact that, from one hour to the next, the security measures occurred in all countries, the recommendation of wearing masks to the population, the agglomeration avoidance, and the lockdowns were common in all cities, and it endeavored new practices. What really happened to me when I reached these groups in France, Spain, and also Mexico? I realized that it was necessary to look at this further. I have three research lines with graduate students analyzing this phenomenon. A thesis of a doctoral student demonstrated very significant issues of the pandemic here that kept resemblance to other countries. At first, we verified that the reaction to the pandemic varies according to social spaces. There is no doubt. Thus, we will suffer the influence of the location and with whom we live. This "location" has to do with the space, where, for example, we perform the security measures of the one who stays at home. This “staying at home”, depending on the size of your family and the place you live, reorganizes cohabitation processes. This has huge importance. We will not have, for example, in some European countries poverty, social inequality as strong as here in Brazil. You will verify that this reality of the pandemic from the poverty and food and nutritional insecurity points of view, in Brazil, has attained the poor populations in all urban and rural areas and the black community. Black people due to historical reasons in Brazil. The fact that this country held the longest slavery period, in the Americas, reflected on the entire 20th century. Since abolition took place, at the end of the 19th century, black Brazilians are thrown out onto the streets like unimportant things. In the absence of social policies, the plan of racial whitening already existed at that time. It will influence the Brazilian experience for centuries. We can say that we are still affected by these events in the 21st century. We should say that the stain of poverty in Brazil has color skin.
It affects black people the most because of the history of slavery and the ways in which Brazil dealt with the post-abolition period. It is possible to verify that in the pandemic of COVID, the slums, where the largest number of people from the black origin are concentrated; in those poverty pockets, the pandemic is something extremely overwhelming. Today food insecurity is real.
The indicators show an enormous proportion. We already have the conviction that we are experiencing absolute hunger, which means, some people spend the whole day without having anything to eat. This is a very gloomy prospect for all of us who work with this issue. We know that this could be avoided by structural and emergency political measures. One of the first measures taken by the government was the extinction of the Food and Nutrition Security National Council (acronym in Portuguese, CONSEA). Therefore, we completely lost the condition of having an echo from the government to act on this. Now, how do the other classes, like, for example, the Brazilian middle class, that resembles, with some restrictions, the European middle classes, survive? They are adapting o the space x time relationship. Those who have more space can cope better with this reality. Those who can work at home and stay in the home office do not represent the national reality. So, what do we see? These are the results that we have been approaching. I would like to emphasize that I am referring to the middle class. The possibility of being able to cook their own food. At the beginning of the pandemic, we noticed an immense use of delivery systems. Everybody was staggered. Most of the people were used to eating outdoors and, suddenly, they had to make their food. We observed several cooking practices that were taken over. Some research conducted by PALIN (the Food, Nutrition, and Culture Program) shows that the search for social networks, media forums for cooking recipes has been quite intense. Another very important angle, which also appears in our research, is the promotion of commensality. People started to eat together, because, the condition of isolation, provided being together on these occasions. There are very positive and challenging facets. As an example of a challenging point: domestic violence against women. Because, in many cases, there is a limited space relationship since the children could not go to school. Therefore, there is a crowd sharing the same environment. These facts have brought some difficulties.
But, what I can mark as a genuine Brazilian characteristic, in relation to European countries: the social inequality. The pandemic fostered the perverse and unacceptable process of social inequality in our country. I have been saying, in the events in which I have been participating, that the pandemic is the allegory of inequality. It introduces some differences even though mortality has been happening in a democratic way. We witness rich, poor, black, white meeting death. We see artists and beggars dying from COVID-19. However, the indicators show us that those, who do not have access to an adequate health care system for their recovery, are dying more than those who have access to a good one.
Obviously, we are dealing with a pandemic, which has an etiological agent, which is a virus. The virus has so far not shown a preference for certain human characteristics. However, we can notice that in European countries and the United States social inequality is not so enormous. On the other hand, the actions from the governments of these countries have been very efficient in emergency and structural issues. Brazil organizes emergency aid not aligned with these previously mentioned issues. It is not useful giving financial aid if the person does not have a job. It is necessary to give emergency aid, but, following the example of the United States, which is closer to us, there is a need of taking structural measures, such as the guarantee of employment and other strategies. In Brazil, this does not happen. This is a very big difference. This has affected, in an extraordinary way, the increase of hunger. We can also point out that obesity, weight gain, and other dietary issues have played an important role.
Hub: You mentioned, in one of your interviews, the book The Geography of Hunger authored by Josué de Castro, reaffirming that hunger is political. Over 70 years from this publication how can you analyze the Brazilian current situation?
DO: Josué de Castro's teachings were very remarkable because they brought, in an unprecedented way, the perspective of the Brazilian food problem was not a biological issue. There were studies, at that time, that looked for geographic concepts, and his great contribution was that: the geography of hunger. He points out that the geography of hunger followed the path of inequality in Brazil. Hunger occurred in places where, for example, the so-called industrial modernization, the access to public goods and services did not exist. Has this changed in Brazil? It is not possible to look at the Brazilian problems as in the fifties when Josué de Castro wrote his work.
The most contemporary aspect of the work is understanding that there is a political issue. Today we can say that it remains. Why is the problem still political? Because we need the estate developing processes of food access and availability which is not merely physical, but also qualitative. This means that it is not enough to have food. Today the country has a very significant consumption of food, but it suffers from the use of pesticides. Today we have a very large consumption of industrialized foods, the so-called ultra-processed foods, the processed foods that reach the poor population.
In Brazil, we have the perspective that the rich eat organic food and the poor industrialized one for the price. I believe that all this reinforces the issues that Josué de Castro brought up in the 50s. The problem is political. I read all of Josué de Castro's work and I can say that he focused on a genuinely Brazilian reality of social and economic inequality itself. I don't remember reading in his work a reference to structural racism and the consequences of slavery in Brazil. However, today there is world geography in which the entire production of food consumed is controlled by eight international groups.
It is not enough to talk about hunger in Brazil without discussing its place in the international interests regarding food production.
Today we would be very attractive in the production of commodities. One of the main ones, which is soy, feeds cattle and other animals around the world. This production, for example, takes away crops of beans and other typical Brazilian products. One can see that the difference from the Geography of Hunger to today is that the issues were restricted to Brazil. Nevertheless, today we need to analyze Brazil within the global production of food. And it does not only affect the biological issue, but it affects the planet. There is a political discussion too, and not just physical and/or biological ones. Is it correct to say that Josué de Castro was a visionary? Yes, at that time it was due the proof that the food issue in Brazil was political. And it still is. Though hunger has changed nuances. In Brazil, we have an absolute hunger. Today we have few kinds of fruits, and vegetables because we have been losing soil to grow soy and raise cattle. This characteristic does not only influence the food and nutritional security not only in Brazil but on the planet.
Hub: Can we affirm that the other countries of Latin America and the United States face food insecurity at the moment?
DO: We have to look at this question in many ways. Let's say that the basic concept of food and nutritional security is having food available from the quantitative and qualitative points of view, respecting the culture of the people, and being sustainable. This has proved to be a challenge because Latin America is within the field of interest of large international groups. According to the relations that we have in Peru, Bolivia, Mexico, Venezuela, it is possible to point out that it is a hard and progressive goal to be achieved. I believe that our difference, in Brazil, at the moment, is that we have not had the chance to dialogue about this issue. The leaders of civil society and progressive governments in Latin America and the Caribbean are very conscious that food and nutritional security have not been guaranteed in their conceptual assumptions.
Hub: The Brazilian Eating Habits Observatory (OBHA) approaches the research with a non-specialized audience. Considering the current era of ultra-processed food, how important is the public understanding of science to talk about nutrition?
DO: This is a challenge that we have experienced. First, it is necessary to recognize that we are scholars, researchers, and we have a scientific language and production among our colleagues. Although Fiocruz seeks a citizen science. Citizen science obliges us to focus on scientific work for the good of society. It cannot only serve personal purposes, which means, improving your career and/or being awarded and recognized. Scientific production must benefit others, otherwise, it makes no sense at all. In consonance with this, we need a language that approaches society. Brazilian science and I believe that this aspect is not confined to our country, is still very far from this dialogue. The pandemic of COVID has shown how a vaccine is approved, the phases of its production have been highlighted in the media. Something that before was restrained to the laboratory. Learning from it, communication has been playing a very important role to practice citizen science. We have to be careful not to be judgemental of people's food consumption. I see this issue with some concern. Since processed, ultra-processed, industry has an extraordinary capacity of building a consumer public. Not only because, at times, it caters to diverse audiences. It has diverse aesthetics. We have to admit that there is a perverse side that has been fought with some protective measures, such as, for example, advertising for children and other groups by nutrition professionals. The fundamental issue pursued by OBHA today is to deconstruct the judgment. It is very mean saying that poor people don't know how to eat or an obese person looks this way because he or she wants to be like this. For example, obesity has a lot to do with the perception of a Eurocentric, white, thin body. I am not supposed to talk deeply about it in this interview. The scientist tends to have a causal relationship when the results come. "You are obese because you eat too much fat and sugar." I cited two very common elements in research. Is that true? Yes. Nevertheless, what makes a person eat too much fat and too much sugar? If one understands these causes, the issue will be looked at from another angle. Another important element is a certain food standardization with the lack of cultural traces. There are culinary preparations of indigenous, African, and European origin, of Brazilian tradition, which are not currently valued. I notice that Brazilian society knows how to eat in a healthy and proper way. The Brazilian food culture acknowledges it. The Brazilian Eating Habits Observatory /OBHA wants to start a dialogue recognizing that we are still distant from the population. We have against us the gigantic investment of the media that includes the aesthetics of the products, the appeal of celebrities to consumption. It is unfair competition, but I and other colleagues from other institutions believe in the importance of citizen science. A science that will contribute to the improvement of food and nutrition for the Brazilian population.
Hub: Could you tell us about the cooperation with Mozambique? Which are Fiocruz’s contributions and lessons learned from this experience? Would you talk about the outcomes of this partnership?
DO: Let's start talking about the internationalization strategy of Fiocruz. Fiocruz chooses the PALOPS (Portuguese-speaking African Countries). The action in Africa is a political choice. The purpose of this cooperation is not to overlap with African knowledge. Even though Africa faces miserable situations, hunger, and food and nutritional insecurity, among other issues. We have been in this partnership for four years and I believe it is possible to advise Mozambique not to fall into certain "traps" in the field of food and nutritional security experienced by Brazil. To cite a concrete example, Mozambique still does not have an agribusiness as consolidated and aggressive as ours. In Mozambique, there are the machambas, which are small farms for food production. The vast majority of the cultivation is in charge of women. From there they get their basic sustenance, but they also sell the surplus. Mozambique has a political vision of not doing what was a failure in Brazil. I and my colleagues from Fiocruz have learned a lot from Mozambique. Being in Mozambique as a black woman and a researcher that has always worked with the issues of hunger and poverty dealing with the issue of social inequality. Observing that this cooperation not only interferes in Mozambique but also reflects in the actions of Fiocruz. It brings the understanding of problems that are here in Brazil and Mozambique. Thus, we can learn and reach a solution together. It is a cooperation that is based on health actions and food and nutritional security. The Fiocruz Global Health Center (acronym in Portuguese, CRIS) with the Brazilian Cooperation Agency (ABC), coordinate this partnership. We create processes that have an impact on the results of improving the food and nutritional situation, especially of the maternal and child population. We deal with a country whose level of malnutrition exceeds 50%. As a Brazilian, I have never experienced this reality. We have had 20, 30%. Brazil has between 12 and 7% in certain areas today. I had the experience with the researcher Eduarda Cesse (Fiocruz Pernambuco) of supervising the doctoral thesis of a Mozambican student. He defended his work in his city that was devastated by Cyclone Idai in 2019. Arriving at Beira (Mozambique's 4th largest city), I realize the strength of these people even from a nutritional point of view. It is possible to observe the daily reconstruction of life. Their strategy of overcoming adversity. I mention Beira because of this cyclone, although I observe the same thing in Maputo (capital of Mozambique), Nampula, among other cities of this country. This cooperation mutually benefits both Fiocruz and Mozambique. We are planning to develop professional masters, MBAs, specializations. There is the idea of a Ph.D. program in the long run. Probably a project will exceed five years. This is not a brand new initiative from the institution. There are other Fiocruz units that have been already developing successful research in the country, such as the Oswaldo Cruz Institute (IOC) in the School of Public Health in Mozambique. I, as a researcher, feel that I am giving back to my ancestors everything that I was able to absorb when I chose this career with many difficulties along the way. Not only me, but the other colleagues at Fiocruz show extreme respect for the Mozambican people. Resulting, thus, in exchange from both sides.